Ep. 123: Transitioning from Counting Macros

On today’s episode, I’m chatting with Reverse Interviewer Kelsey about the best ways to transitioning from counting macros towards a more intuitive way of eating.

We’re back with our 123rd episode of the Fed+Fit Podcast! Remember to check back every Monday for a new episode and be sure to subscribe on iTunes!

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Episode 123 Sponsors

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Episode 123 Transcription

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Cassy Joy: Welcome back to another episode of the Fed and Fit podcast. I am excited today because I’m joined by another wonderful Fed and Fit listener. Today we’re joined by Kelsey from Austin, Texas. She’s a petroleum engineer. And if you’re new to the show, and you’re new to reverse interviews, it is just a reader or a listener will write in with a really fabulous question, and instead of answering their question via e-mail, which is what they’ve asked me to do {laughs}. I instead invite them to come on the show to have a conversation, where we can talk through their question with the hopes that if this goes up on the podcast, it resonates with more folks that are out there. And I really think that is going to be the case today. Kelsey, welcome to the show!

Kelsey: Thank you, I appreciate it.

Cassy Joy: Yeah, definitely. Well, just out of curiosity, where did you get your degree in petroleum engineering?

Kelsey: I went to Texas A&M University.

Cassy Joy: Whoop!

Kelsey: In College Station. A little birdie told me you went there as well. It was a wonderful place and I enjoyed it.

Cassy Joy: I was hopeful. It’s got a great petroleum engineering program, so I was wondering if you’re an Aggie. That’s so exciting! And football season is around the corner.

Kelsey: I know. I’m so excited. I’ve got to get myself up to a game. I try to go once every season, but we’ll see if that’s going to happen.

Cassy Joy: Oh, that’s so good. I actually just had; I’m doing a surprise. I {laughs} guess I really shouldn’t give too many details, because we haven’t announced it yet. But I’m doing a collaborate eBook with three other bloggers. And we’re scheduling the big photo shoot. Because we’re going to do about a week worth of photos together. They’re coming to San Antonio for it. And as soon as the Aggie football schedule was announced, I reached back out, and I was like, “Guys, I’m sorry to be such a Texan right now, but can we not do it on the South Carolina weekend game?” {laughs}

Kelsey: {laughs} I think I went to that one, I guess two years ago, because that would have been when we had that. That’s a great game. I think sometimes you have to schedule around Aggie football. It just makes more sense. Things step aside when Aggie football comes around.

Cassy Joy: It’s true. It’s like scheduling a wedding. Aggies know. When you’re scheduling your wedding, it needs to be on an away weekend. {laughs}

Kelsey: Or you provide televisions for all your guests at the reception.

Cassy Joy: Absolutely. You’ve got to meet them halfway. Ok, I’m sorry. I won’t bore everybody to tears. But I’m so excited to talk with another Aggie. Ok, Kelsey, I know you had a great question. Take it away, and give folks a little more background info.

Kelsey: Awesome, yeah I’ll try to keep it brief. Basically, I kind of went up and down my whole life in weight. I did Weight Watchers. I did just working out by itself. But mostly never really knew, I guess, what I was doing and my weight would go up and down. I was just never really happy with it, or I guess kind of accepted. I’m just a bigger person, no big deal.

I moved to Austin about a year and a half ago, and I started going to this gym. It’s pretty much like HIIT boot camps. CrossFit style, but without the big Olympic lifts and all that. I started working with my friend, who is one of the owners of the gym, and the trainer there. She got me on macros. And in a matter of 8 weeks, I lost 5% body fat. I gained a bunch of muscle. It was just kind of an eye-opening experience. It was the first time I could really kind of take control.

I mean, me, I’m very sciency. Engineering, obviously. So I was like, oh well it makes sense. This is how much of this that I would eat, and this is what it’s doing to my body. And I got real excited about it. After about probably a year; it’s probably been a little over a year of counting macros, I just kind of burnt out on it. Priorities change a little bit. I wasn’t really seeing any progress anymore to any distinct degree, but cutting forever. That’s not really reasonable, right? You kind of lose motivation there.

I kind of approached a place in my life where I wanted to stop tracking. I started listening to your podcast, and seeing the blog, and some other paleo bloggers, as well. And I was like; man. People have been able to see results and really transform their lives without counting every gram and every calorie of food that goes into their bodies. And me having such a; I guess an unhealthy past with food as far as not knowing what to eat.

It’s been kind of hard for me to let go of the macros. And really trust myself with food. It’s something I recognize as you shouldn’t be afraid of it. Afraid of food, or afraid of the amount of macros you’re eating. Especially on paleo where I tend to eat higher fats. Where I lost a bunch of weight doing maybe 55 grams of fat a day. I wasn’t by any means starving myself. I was eating a lot of food. But it scares me a little bit, letting go. And I just kind of wondered. Did you have that nervousness, as far as just kind of trusting yourself with food?

Cassy Joy: Mm-hmm. This is such a really great topic; great question. Yes. I definitely went through that, as well. I did not enter this world from a macros perspective, but I entered it from; I don’t know if you, Kelsey, have you ever heard of the blocks, the Zone diet?

Kelsey: Yes I know a little bit about it.

Cassy Joy: Ok, so it’s less based on actual grams of what you need for each macronutrient and more geared towards how many blocks of food you need from each of those macronutrients. So you need, for example, a block. Based on your weight and your goals and things like that. For the record, before I go much further down this road, I’m not promoting this. {laughing}

Kelsey: Yeah.

Cassy Joy: But this was kind of my entry into healing from having no control over what I was eating, and food was either a form of reward or punishment, right? To knowing that I had to do something different. And finally transitioning over into just being able to live. And continue to see results. So this was a part of my transition, and my transition was really slow. I think it’s partly because I was not ready to give up, I guess, being told what to eat if that makes any sense.

So for the blocks, it was essentially if I need personally 4 blocks of carbohydrates per day, I knew that one cup of raspberries equaled one block. So I would space those things out. I would have half a cup of potato for another block for dinner. Things like that. So it was more portion based. And I had a lot of fear when it came to stop measuring my food.

Now, granted, those were ballpark measurements in terms of volume. It wasn’t necessarily grams of protein. And then you really get into the weeds, depending on the density of the food. And what’s really present there. So, you know, it was a little bit lighter. It was counting light. {laughs} I’m also kind of a nerd. But not; man, those petroleum engineers can really hack it. {laughs}

Kelsey: {laughs} I don’t know what you’re talking about, about nerds. I have no idea.

Cassy Joy: {laughing} I have a lot of respect for it. You’re definitely one smart cookie. So I definitely understand that you would gravitate towards a much more detailed, specific scientific program. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But if you’re trying to transition, and just life, and still see results, it can be very intimidating. You feel like you’re jumping off a diving board into the deep end, and you have no idea how far down it goes, or really where the four walls are. So it’s kind of a scary transition.

And I say all that just to let you know you’re definitely not alone in that. And it doesn’t mean that you don’t have hope. And it doesn’t mean that there isn’t possibility for you to continue to see progress, or continue to feel great without feeling like you have to obsessively; or maybe it’s not even obsessively. But just track the numbers, the grams of proteins, fats and carbs.

So how do we do that? Right? How do we make that transition is kind of the golden question? And there’s a bunch of different ways. There’s a bunch of different paths you could take. But for the most part, something that I’ve seen that works really well. For everybody that I’ve worked with, for myself when I was going through this. I guess I should say in terms of success rate, this has probably one of the highest success rates for people who actually utilize it.

And the good news is, if you’re used to having an active role in determining your nutrition, it plays to that. Because it gives you something to do. It’s not like I would just tell you, “Stop counting, start eating.” Right? Because that’s not helpful. That’s like telling somebody, like with my clients, it’s like telling them, “You need to stop drinking soda and just drink water.” Because water wouldn’t be the same for them. It would be too big of a jump; too big of a mindset shift. I would say, every time you crave a soda, grab a sparkling water instead. Because at least you get the bubbles still. And at least you get something that feels semi-special.

So, when it comes to behavioral swaps. When it comes to tracking things, I think swapping in out from counting grams of what you’re eating to qualifying it in terms of a food journal. So you’re probably journaling all those things already. But changing what you’re writing I think can have a huge impact.

So instead of talking about the actual weights of what’s showing. Because by this; after a year of counting macros, you probably have a really good idea of what’s represented in different foods.

Kelsey: Right. Which is why I think sometimes paleo has kind of been scary to me. It’s like, “Oh my gosh! My fat is through the roof.”

Cassy Joy: Fat, yes.

Kelsey: I can feel it. Even if I don’t write it down.

Cassy Joy: Totally, yeah. And you know what, it’s ok to go a little light. It sounds like you may be somebody who is not very fat tolerant. And that’s totally normal. I’m actually not a very highly fat tolerant person myself. I do a little bit better with more carbohydrates than I do with more fats. So I think knowing that about yourself is really going to help you in this transition. And it doesn’t sound like it’s going to be a very long one for you. I feel like you’re going to be there in no time.

So knowing that about yourself, you can customize paleo in that way. Gosh, who was it? I was talking to Lexie Davidson of Lexie’s Clean Kitchen. And we were talking about there are some other bloggers out there, not in the paleo world, but they will put Weight Watchers points on all their recipes. And it’s a pretty neat way to at least reach that market of people. But we were joking that for the most part, a lot of the paleo recipes. Especially the older recipes that I have on my blog, back before there was arrowroot or white potatoes, you know? {laughs} and coconut was in everything. The points would have been just through the roof, just because of the healthy fats. So I would pick and choose paleo recipes based on what you know is going to work for your body.

I personally, for example I have a recipe for stuffed avocados that people really love, but I can’t eat those. I’ll eat the chicken out of them, and I’ll eat maybe a quarter of an avocado from that recipe. But I can’t eat a whole avocado in one meal. It’s just too much fat for my body.

Kelsey: Yeah. I’ll feel a little bloated. I mean, it fills you up for sure. But yeah, I don’t always feel awesome after a huge meal of that.

Cassy Joy: Exactly! And it sounds like we might be somewhat similar in our constitution in that we’re slightly less fat tolerant than maybe other folks are. So I would say that journaling starting with the foods that you know make you feel good, whether or not you’re counting them would be a good place to go. Write down how they make you feel, then going from there. Looking more retrospective; how did you feel after that meal, and then making tweaks from there.

I had; you probably already have all this data so you could probably already make all these decisions. But I would say journaling more food quality; as in, what’s actually showing up on your plate, versus quantity might help you kind of jump that bridge a little bit. Is that helpful at all?

Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah, that’s helpful. I think even when it comes down to portions, it could be helpful to find out; I was hungry an hour after this meal.

Cassy Joy: Yeah!

Kelsey: And it was very carb heavy. Or maybe I need a little bit of fat if I’m feeling really hungry. Or is there sugar in it. Something like that that I can kind of limit.

Cassy Joy: Exactly. That’s exactly what I’m getting at. And that kind of journaling can be really powerful when, after the end. And let’s say you have a workout in there, and for lunch you had a chicken salad. It was pretty low-carb, relatively low fat, but it had plenty of protein so your calories may have been up there. But you bonked really early in your workout. You ran out of steam, and you didn’t recover very quickly afterwards. Those kinds of things to write down will really help you to then flip back through and say, “Oh, you know what? I actually did go really low-carb that day on accident. Maybe I need to add a little bit more water here and there.” Or whatever it is that you’ve got jotted down that you notice. You’ll be able to figure it out better than anybody.

And the same goes for fats. If you feel more weighed down the next day, you can scroll through and say, “You know what? I had avocado and bacon and butter on that potato. All in one meal. Maybe that was too much fat for me!”

Kelsey: Sounds delicious.

Cassy Joy: It sounds delicious. And don’t get me wrong, I eat it. But those kinds of observations might be really powerful.

Kelsey: Right. Yeah, that’s a great idea. And it’s something that I guess I’ve tried to kind of go cold turkey on the macros. It gives me a little undue stress sometimes. But that’s a great idea just so I’m being conscious. In the past, I’ve tended to be a bit of a boredom eater, too. Snacking has been a big part of my past. And my meals may be alright, but what’s really always derailed me is snacking between meals. It really has. So writing down the quantity of my meals; it lets me know, these are healthy good foods for you. And if you’re eating enough to keep you full for the day, I’m staying away from some of those tempting things that I treated myself to before.

Cassy Joy: Right. Exactly. I think if people are truly hungry between meals, then they’re just not eating enough at the meal prior. And then that’s a thing that you can determine through journaling, for example. Right? You have breakfast at 7 a.m., and at 10:30 in the morning, maybe an hour before you really want to have lunch, you’re truly hungry. Which would tell me that maybe you need to add just a little bit more of something to your breakfast. Whether it’s a protein or a fat. Or maybe even just a carbohydrate. Something to help you get through.

Because snacking, to your point, can be kind of a slippery slope into no-brakes eating. And that’s something I had to heal from as well. I had; gosh, a wide array of bad relationships. Not bad relationships, but problems with how I viewed food. Sorry, Gus is talking to me right now. {laughs} He’s my Great Pyrenees, and he’s staring me down, because he wants either a sweet potato, or a W-A-L-K.

Kelsey: I think the dogs are channeling each other. I have some dropping toys in my lap as we speak.

Cassy Joy: {laughing} They’re like, get it together mom.

Kelsey: Give me 5 minutes.

Cassy Joy: You have been gone all day long. And now you’re ignoring me. {laughs}

Kelsey: What are you doing, human, it is my life, no yours.

Cassy Joy: {laughing} Totally. You are in the presence of Gus. {laughs} Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. So when it comes to those kind of things, I still, if I think back on my relationship with food there were certain foods that were triggers for me. And it would send me down a very slippery slope. We call them no-brakes foods. Meaning that you can sit in front of a bowl of kale and stop eating when you’ve had enough kale.

Kelsey: Oh yeah.

Cassy Joy: Right? But, for me, when I’m sitting in front of a bowl of pasta. Even if it’s gluten free pasta, I will eat until the bowl is empty.

Kelsey: Yes.

Cassy Joy: Because it’s a no-brakes food for me. I don’t have any sort of an awareness of when I’ve had enough, aside from physical fullness. And even then, it’s very easy to ignore. So when it comes to those types of things, I still try to portion myself off. Pizza is another no-brakes food for me, just because I love it so much. I put ranch dressing on it. It’s just so delicious.

Kelsey: That’s what’s going through my head right now, as you said “no-brakes food”, I’m like, I can’t order pizza.

Cassy Joy: {laughs} Or you can, but give yourself the three to four pieces that you know won’t make you feel terrible.

Kelsey: Right. And then put the rest in the fridge. Put it away.

Cassy Joy: Put the rest away; exactly. And that’s what I have to do. We had it last night. I ordered Domino’s gluten free pizza. And I have eaten the whole darn thing before. And it makes me feel so sick for an entire day. Which just isn’t worth it. So I know it’s enough food; I’m not in danger of not getting enough calories if I only eat maybe a third to half of it. So I would say try to portion out those things that are going to be a little bit more of a temptation, you know, when it comes to actually counting portions. Portion those out, and be really strategic about them, or enjoy them not as regularly as you other foods.

But for everything else, try to listen to your body. Try to listen to when you really feel like you’ve had enough. When your energy is feeling the best, and let that kind of be your guide to really peeling away the layers to what your body is actually needing.

Kelsey: That’s a great point. Great idea. And like I said, it will help too. As far as, I’ve seen great results through it, and I’m really kind of happy with where I am and at the nutrition has gotten me. You mentioned before that your kind of journey to where you are was slow. I mean, you made great progress. From looking at your past information, and your weight loss journey. Was there a point where you plateaued? Was there something you told yourself when you’re like, “Ok, I’m just going to trust the eating clean and continue to work out process.” Because I’m a results now person. I know it’s not always realistic.

Cassy Joy: Right.

Kelsey: I feel like I love the way that I look, but I want more, right? And I want it right now. And it doesn’t work that way.

Cassy Joy: I know. And it’s hard. That is probably the biggest transition, mental transition to go through. Is when you have arrived at a really healthy state to stop working on getting there.

Kelsey: Right.

Cassy Joy: That just takes some self-awareness. It takes, for me, for example. Looking back, in hindsight. So now I’m pregnant, right? Where I’m in my second trimester.

Kelsey: Congratulations.

Cassy Joy: Thank you. And my body is changing a lot. And I just posted; I was going through pictures from a fitness photo shoot that I did last year. And it’s so funny; I remember when I was taking those photos, I thought I was still kind of on a journey of working on my fitness. Which I am, and I always will be. Because it’s kind of a destination-less journey. But I remember; now I look back on those photos and I think, “Wow. I was in amazing shape.” But I really didn’t give myself that credit when I was there. So that’s really hard, when you are a results-driven person. It’s hard to know when this is good, and when to maintain.

Kelsey: Right.

Cassy Joy: So when do you get into that maintaining mode? It’s hard to know if that’s appropriate. You can really only answer that for yourself, or you can ask a close family or friend member that you know and you trust to give you really great advice. Would you say that; I just kind of need a reality check in terms of, do I need to keep working on this. Do you still think I have progress that can be made, or do you think things are great? It all depends on your goals.

If you have performance goals, and that’s why folks who are in CrossFit, for example, or do Olympic lifting or runs and things like that, they have actual performance goals that they’re working on. And then their physique just becomes something that’s along for the ride. That’s a slightly different story.

But when it comes to just how you’re looking and how you’re feeling, it’s hard to know when you really arrive. So I would take a step back. Look at old photos. Take recent photos. And compare the two side by side so you can kind of objectively be like, “Oh, wow. Yeah. I’m doing awesome.”

Now, if you feel like you have plateaued and you still have body fat; a good amount of body fat to lose. Or you could be doing more in the gym. Like your performance could be; you could have more output, right? Then it’s worth looking nutritionally and seeing if any tweaks can be made.

When I was at that point, I was going; my journey, the biggest part of my transformation took about a year. And I would say that I plateaued somewhere in the middle towards the latter part. Because I started eating more fat, ironically, because I’m not very fat tolerant. But I started eating more than I was before. I was a little too low fat. I started eating more and all of a sudden my weight loss kind of kicked back in. Metabolically, at least, I was burning more body fat and building more muscle more easily. I had more energy in my workouts, and I started sleeping a little bit better.

So I started eating more fat, and then I started eating a little bit more carbs. I stopped being so afraid of carbohydrates, and I started feeling better and better. My clothes kept fitting better and better. So if you’re truly at a plateau, it might be worth looking at upping carbs or fat, one of the two if not both. But if it’s a mental thing and you’re just trying to figure out how to tell yourself, “I’m here! And that’s good! I can keep doing this.” Then you just kind of go into maintenance mode and you start experimenting with recipes in the kitchen instead of grilled chicken breast and broccoli. Because you know those are kind of performance related foods. Does that make any sense?

Kelsey: Yes, absolutely. It does. It is amazing, too, how society tells us, “You shouldn’t eat more to start getting results.” Right? It doesn’t make sense. But I think that was one of the craziest things. And it was looking at the content of the diet, and what kind of foods I was eating versus the quantity. I remember always eating; I remember looking back at what I ate before, and it was like, ok an English muffin and then oatmeal and then I’d have like a sandwich. And then I wouldn’t cook and I’d have another sandwich. And there was no protein in it.

It was literally all carbs. And then when I switched to macros, it was like, ok. I’m introducing a lot of protein; I’m eating more and more. And it’s amazing how the pounds can fall off, eating more food.

Cassy Joy: Yeah. Isn’t it? It is. It’s interesting. It’s as if our body is a machine, and once it has enough fuel to really properly run, all engines are go all of a sudden. And it works much more efficiently. So that is. That is really interesting. And it is very different from what we think. Eat less, exercise more. Right? That’s the old adage. And truth be told, that will work up to a point. But you will hit a wall.

Kelsey: Yes. And then your metabolism does, for sure.

Cassy Joy: Yeah, exactly. And then the metabolism stalls. If you’re very extreme with eat less, workout more, your body kind of goes into survival mode. And it thinks that you’re going to put it through really low caloric intake periods of time, and it’s going to maintain body fat in order to get through those things. So it is interesting. But I hope this whole conversation has been helpful and not too rambling.

Kelsey: No, it absolutely has. And it’s good to talk to somebody who kind of reaffirms what I tell myself. It will be fine; I’ve learned a lot over the period of time. I just need to kind of relax and be comfortable with what I’ve learned thus far. And try to qualitatively analyze it versus quantitatively.

Cassy Joy: Yes, exactly. You’ve got this. Focus on how your feeling versus maybe what the numbers tell you you should be feeling like. I would really focus on that part of it, kind of the back end of the equation. And then back yourself into the formula that works for you. So I think that’s really great.

And when in doubt; I’m sure your hydration game is great. But when in doubt, if you’re really feeling sluggish, and things are stalling for you, it could always be related to dehydration or exhaustion.

Kelsey: Yes. That’s a good point.

Cassy Joy: And I’ve seen that come up with a lot of people who are dotting their I’s and crossing their T’s nutritionally. They’re listening to their body. They’re giving it what they know it needs. They’ve been through this kind of journaling introspective program before. But all of a sudden they stall. And when you look at the numbers, it’s because they’re sleeping 4 hours a night and not drinking as much water because they have a really intense period at work going on right now, and they just don’t have the time for it. And as soon as they pick those things back up; add a couple more hours on at night and start drinking more water, things pick up again. Their energy starts to go back up, and maybe even body fat starts to come off again. So make sure those two pieces are in check, also.

Kelsey: Yeah, those are always the first to go.

Cassy Joy: They are, aren’t they?

Kelsey: On a busy schedule, that’s the two first things that we forget about. I know I do at least.

Cassy Joy: Absolutely. I do too. And it’s low hanging fruit. It really is. Because sometimes it feels more difficult to change what’s showing up on our plate than it is the fact that we can just drink an extra glass of water between meals and try to go to bed an hour earlier.

Kelsey: Right.

Cassy Joy: You know. Those two things, I would argue, have a greater impact on our health and wellbeing than even what shows up on our plate.

Kelsey: Yeah. I have a laundry list of things I need to work on.

Cassy Joy: Oh good! That’s so exciting.

Kelsey: Yeah, these are good things. Especially the sleep. Meal planning and stuff; I’d stay up an extra hour just planning my food for the next day finding out what I was going to eat, and then I’d look at the clock and be like, “Oh man. I have to wake up in 5 hours. This is probably not what I should have done.”

Cassy Joy: Yeah. That’s hard. That’s a hard one to prioritize between the two. And that’s why I organize them as priorities. Right? Priority one is mindset. Priority two is rest and hydration. Because I really think the two go hand in hand. And then we have food. And then we have fitness. And if we tackle those things; if you’ve only got time to work on your perspective, your attitude, and your sleep, then go ahead and do those and don’t worry about the rest. I think that’s a good thing.

And we’re all going to go through periods where they’re moving parts. For example, while I was writing the book, it was a crazy time with crazy deadlines. I was cooking 10 to 12 dishes a day. Which, it just sounds; when I say that out loud, I hear myself say it, and I think, “That sounds like I have such a cushy job.” {laughs} Because I just have to cook. But they were…

Kelsey: It sounds like a lot of cleaning.

Cassy Joy: It was; that’s really what it was. It was more cleaning than anything. At the end of the day, I would ask my husband; “Can I just burn the kitchen down and start over?” {laughs} But there were really long days on my feet. And then at nighttime, I had to do a lot of editing. And then you’d wake up as soon as possible the next day to start it all over again. And that would happen day after day after day after day. So I was only sleeping 5 to 6 hours a night. I probably was not very hydrated because I just wouldn’t think about drinking water.

So in those occasions, during that season, I compensated those high priority items with excellent nutrition. Right? I didn’t drink alcohol while I was working on those really intense days of the book, because I didn’t want to overload my body in that way, as well. Those kinds of decisions. I also worked out less during that period. Because I was trying to reduce stress on my body overall. So you’re going to have seasons, and you’re going to be able to counterbalance those things out. But for the most part, if you have the ability to influence rest and hydration, those are going to have a huge impact.

Kelsey: Ok. Yeah.

Cassy Joy: Awesome. Kelsey, do you have any other questions for me today?

Kelsey: I think that abut answers my biggest question. I appreciate you having me on here.

Cassy Joy: Yeah, girl, likewise! Thanks for coming on. I wish you the best. And we’ll be in for another Aggie football season.

Kelsey: Definitely. I think we’re definitely going to be undefeated this season. I can feel it. {laughing}

Cassy Joy: {laughs} I like it. I like that attitude. I ran into somebody in West Virginia recently who was an Aggie grad, class of ‘56 or something. He’s an old Ag. And we were joking; he said, “people up here just aren’t as excited about college football as we are. They take it a different kind of seriously.” I said, you know, I think all of us Aggies were just eternal optimists.

Kelsey: {laughs} You have to be!

Cassy Joy: {laughing} Every year’s our year.

Kelsey: It’s such emotional turmoil.

Cassy Joy: It’s a very emotional rollercoaster, for sure. Oh man. Well Kelsey, I wish you the best. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, and for asking your great questions. I hope it was helpful.

Kelsey: Definitely was. Thank you very much, Cassy.

Cassy Joy: Good, thank you so much. And for all of our listeners. Thanks so much everybody for dialing in. As always, you can find a complete transcript of today’s show over at www.FedandFit.com under the episode show notes. And as always, we’ll be back again next week.